Hope Road

Well said Anna! You are a godly, smart, and strong young woman. Too many of us let others tell us we are young and naive and we sacrifice God’s truths. You maybe young, but you are beyond what a lot of women (of all ages) are in their faith. Praise God.

I don’t think you’re too young but I do think it’s unwise to guide others in areas you haven’t experienced. I think it’s unwise to guide girls of marrying age into a complementarian construct as if you’ve experienced it - speak of it from scriptural conviction fine, but leave it at that. And I think it’s always wise to explain that many learned God fearing people have come to different conclusions.

and sweetie, you haven’t just been led by Jesus’ hand, I respect your convictions but don’t think for a second that WE ALL are simply led by Jesus - we’re led by many other influences as well.

none of us (your critics) are disqualifying you because of your age, but because of OUR age, we ARE trying to give some balance and critique to your words….esp. when you are speaking to the young because it’s a conviction of ours as well.

I do understand your frustration though Anna, I was your age not very long ago and a woman in ministry - - I got lots of comments that were annoying - - but the truth is, I WAS young and I WAS stupid in many things and I WAS immature and in many ways still am. Sometimes it’s good to just recognize it for what it is

I never worry about you because your wisdom is of God and not your own.

Though I strive after the heart of the Father, my 6 year old son already gets “it”. I have 27 years on my son but he understands and lives certain things that I am trying to achieve.

Just because I am older than you doesn’t mean I stop doing what you are doing now. I have to be humble. I submit myself to authority. I keep myself quadtriple accountable in everything I do especially in ministry. I have to solely depend on God and God alone.

You are at your age and you know these things. I am 32 years old and I have just figured out these things in the last 10 months. How our God reigns is up to Him. It is up to us whether we obey and serve.

Joe - these differences really ultimately have nothing to do with age or wisdom for that matter - they’re a difference in interpretation. period.

So there’s something to be said for experience. But truth is truth. No, I know its not always in black&white. But if we can’t come to some solid conclusions before we begin experiencing some things, we’re likely to fail…drown in the current.

But… take that for whats its worth. I’m only 18. Does that change what I said?

I should add that its by God’s grace that we don’t all “drown in the current”. I think Anna would agree. I don’t think this breaks my point, because its by grace that we come to the conclusions we do, if they’re based on truth. (which isn’t open to interpretation)

and my truth is different than her truth
my point is that this isn’t about age, this simply about disagreement. I have older women tell me all the time that I’m young and someday I’ll get it - - this is very gnostic, secret knowledge that we can come by if we’re enlightened enough - - so I understand the frustration.

Anna and I don’t disagree because she’s young and I’m older, we disagree because we disagree, her understanding of the truth in certain areas is different than mine.

Where I have a problem is when Anna and others talk about the joys of complementarian marriage when they haven’t been married. you all can talk about your understandings of the scriptures regarding this issue but it’s unwise to tell people how great it is when you haven’t experienced it. And some older women have been married a long time starting out compl and later becoming egal and can attest to the error of that statement (and vice versa).

and of course we don’t need to experience something to have beliefs about it - - that’s not my point.

This is a well written defense of your distinct perspective as a young conservative Christian.

Having been a liberal for a good portion of my life, I can say first-hand that the principle strategies to undermine a conservative position include attacking his/her age, experience or level of education.

You have just as much right to propose and defend your positions on any range of subjects. You write with passion and clarity and clearly your words touch people.

As for needing to have certain experiences, this may be helpful, but I don’t believe it is necessary. One of the best marriage counselors I’ve known was a (truly) celibate priest.

Continue to share your convictions, Anna. I’m confident people are being blessed and challenged to lead more holy and faithful lives.

I think that’s a crock pete - conservatives do it to those they perceive as liberal as well - - use the age card. and I’m not liberal for the record.

I agree that you should keep sharing your passions anna and I don’t ever want to discourage you from that. But my concern stands when it comes to some of your comments about the “joys” of complementarian marriage.

It is interesting that in our culture, we emphasize experiential forms of knowledge and information. Subjective spiritual experiences, empirical “objective” events, etc. There is a disdain for history in that it is not direct experience. It is experience as recorded by someone other than me. Much of conservatism is based on the inherited wisdom of the past. As Russell Kirk would say, true conservatism is looking back at the past, and attempting to liberate the present from its mistakes, while not abandoning its strengths and institutions.

What was it that Churchill said? The person who is a conservative in their youth has no heart. The person who is a liberal in their old age has no brain.
Bringing up age as a means to defeat an argument in any discussion is an ad hominem unless the argument is about age. That said, I think Mak’s point concerning how wonderful an experience is when you haven’t yourself experienced it is a valid one. One can argue that a particular construct is a positive conception because it meets various criteria deemed appropriate. A theory is neutral. It must be proved wrong theoretically first before it can be proved wrong empirically.

Age? Be as little children. If you can’t explain something to a child there’s an argument to made that you don’t really understand it yourself
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Anna I have two little sidenotes:
1. Why can’t women occupy positions of leadership? I know we have 1 Tim 2 and the (in)famous passages from Corinthians but then we have Phoebe and Priscilla to name but two women who had some degree of authority over believers.

2. Your blog is a blessing. Keep at and keep writing. Brothers and sisters disagree but I for one know my walk is better because of your writings on this little corner of the internet. Be Blessed.

Interesting conversation.

I am moderate, older and I read Anna’s blog because of who she is and the relevancy of her posts. Doesn’t matter if I agree or not, their not my blogs. Anyhow, I appreciate the writing and the reflections for what they are, not what I hope for them to be or what I would expect them to be.

By the way, when you get a chance, swing by my own blog to catch up on exactly what we mean when we throw around the “conservative” and “liberal” labels; I’m sure all of us could use the history lesson on this one.

Oh, and Anna; I’m still waiting for that Part 2 on the opposite gender and spirituality thing!

You absolutely should continue your writing and let the wisdom that God has given to you be heard. This blog of yours is a ministry, and I appreciate the blessings that you have given this 33 years old man. Don’t let your youth hold you back and continue to be bold for Christ. Troubles will come, but be of good cheer. The One you serve has overcome the world!

I’ve just recently found your blog and find it a great blessing. I don’t see your “age” at all in your posts. I’m a new Christian and, in your writings, I see someone who has gained wisdom in their walk and someone I can learn a great deal from. So thank you Anna !

jacob - that’s extremely over simplified and actually typifies much of the lack of humility that I’m talking about.

conservatism looks to the past? where as what? liberalism doesn’t?

that is EXACTLY the frustration that many of us come to - the false dichotomy persisting between different opinions labeling them liberal vs. conservative and the idea the conservative = true because conservative = historical.

My ideas about issues of gender, AND my ideas that do not line up with Calvin AND my ideas about church leadership and scripture are just as historical as Anna’s.

as to your comment that knowledge can come from more than just experience - - no doubt, again, I repeat, that’s not the point. Anna is making reference to past conversations we’ve had where she talks about the joys of patriarchalism within marriage. (calling it complementarianism) I have challenged her on that point suggesting that she’d be wise to use caution when making such statements. If she wants to talk about what she’s observed in others and what she believes the bible says that’s one thing but to talk about the joys as if with personal experience is folly.

Okay, just to clear a couple of things up…

1) Mak, I did not have just you in mind with this post, but my critics in general, and not just one entry, either. I would never have written this in response to one person disagreeing with me. It was more of an overall response I’d been feeling lately.

2) For clarity’s sake, the statement I made that Mak has referred to several times was in my January 4 post titled, “Sisters… what I long for you to know.” I wrote, “Submission in a godly marriage is not demeaning; it is freeing.” This is a statement of my opinion; it references nothing of my own experience. In fact, I based that statement on what I have read in Scripture and witnessed in others, and I was told that that was not sufficient in order for me to know the truth value of the statement… which is exactly my point in this whole entry.

I guess the egals would also say that we cannot say there will be peace, joy and love in heaven since none of us has experienced it yet. We are all metabolically “too young” to state that with proper conviction.

It is absurd to think that the truth of obeying (oops, sorry) following God’s principles can result in anything less than joy - whether yet to be experienced in our life yet or not. That’s called faith.

In fairness we could state that the egals would also expect to have joy in their experience based upon their scriptural belief - whether married yet or not. I don’t have a problem giving that space - but it should work both ways.

Well said, Anna! As young women, we do need to stay humble and admit that we don’t know everything (which is true for all Christians), but at the same time we need to not compromise on our convictions and things we know to be true. Keep doing what you’re doing!
PS. We really do share a lot of the same beliefs (the ones you listed), that’s really cool

that’s fine anna - and I give you that space to believe that. All I suggested was caution. I have known so many wonderful godly women hurt so badly by being put in that box and told that “that way” is so wonderful and freeing - - thanks to God they were able to get out of that box and their husbands saw how damaging it was and supported them but I just wanted to warn you that your words to the very young women of this blog are powerful and can have lasting affects of which you do not know. I know you aren’t responsible for that and you have to speak your convictions I simply wanted to extend a little warning in that particular instance.

I know you words weren’t just to me but I’m the only one representing your critics right now.

and again tim, that’s not the point. yes of course we can speak of things we haven’t experienced. But I am a feminist (not theologically liberal in the way most of you speak) and egalitarian and I have just as strong feelings about this issue as Anna. She feels that people aren’t taking her seriously because she’s young, she feels that people think she’ll “grow out of” her passionately conservative stance. Now, I do happen to believe conservatism looks nice to anna and young women like her because they never experienced the horrors of true patriarchy, they see through rose colored glasses a world where men lead and take care of women because they haven’ seen the other side. However, I have no doubt that anna and others like her will continue on this path and be very happy on it. I don’t begrudge her that and I dont’ for a second think that she believes this way simply because she’s young. This is about differences of opinion.

I’m much older than anna and spent most of my life where she is. I am no longer in that place but I know it’s not just because I’ve gotten older and had more experience.

Anna,
Difference of opinions and understanding concerning interpretation and practices of Scripture have been a reality among sincere believers for ages.

This statement concerns me…

“I make the radical claim that what I believe is true for everyone.”

Yet in the next sentence you explain that there are many things you don’t understand. This is true for all of us, which is why it would be unwise for any of us, no matter our age, to claim that what we believe is true for everyone.

Yes, the essentials of orthodox doctrine are true for everyone. Beyond that you are in the realm of personal interpretation where it is dangerous to believe that your view and truth are the same.

I hear your frustration in being dismissed because of your youth. There are many women who have experienced many years of the same dismissal within the church because of their gender.

Definitely stand up for your right to have a voice, but be aware that truth stands separately and above any particular interpretation of nonessential doctrine.

Blessings to you.

Grace, you’re right. Charity in non-essentials is important. I don’t think I expressed myself well on that point. I don’t think that “disputable matters” will look the same for everyone.

As far as the whole complementarianism issue goes, which seems to have been the most controversial point, I don’t think it is a disputable matter on the level of eating food sacrificed to idols or drinking alcohol. I think there is biblical truth about it, and that is not something we can overlook.

However, it is not an essential of the faith. So you are right in saying that I need to be careful in making it seem like an essential.

Thanks for your words.

Anna,
Thanks for your gracious response. If I can push back a little more, your phrasing concerning complementarianism still elevates your interpretation to the level of “biblical truth.”

I think that it is fair for you to say that it is something that you feel strongly or passionately about, but it is your interpretation, not the definitive truth.

I would argue just as passionately that patriarchy is a distortion of God’s intention for our relationships based in an inaccurate understanding of the trinity and the nature of love and submission. When I claim that as “the biblical truth that we cannot overlook”, where does that leave you and your interpretation of scripture regarding this issue?

Just a few thoughts that hopefully will help you in navigating discussions of these controversial topics.

Amen sister! God is using you and it is such a blessing!

Hey, this could be good. Grace, please explain your comment on patriarchy being “based in an inaccurate understanding of the trinity”. I think I hear the ice cracking.

Tim,
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the ice comment.

My point was that Anna does not have to agree with my point of view on this issue. In fact, I have no desire to persuade her. Her disagreement with me does not diminish my certainty in my beliefs.

I don’t engage in debate on this topic. If you are truly interested, there is a wealth of resources available online.

In the non-essentials, we have the potential to treat our conversation partners with respect or to shut them out of the conversation with our tone and claims. When we choose a dogmatic stance, we lose the opportunity to find unity in the things we share in common.

Grace,
I do agree that sometimes these conversations can get out of hand, but simply focusing on what we have in common doesn’t lead to correct beliefs or attitudes.

I recognize that you are trying to argue against what Anna is terming “truth” and not necessarily her actual beliefs. But what are the use of our own beliefs if they are simply our own interpretation, which means that we all could believe different things and never prove one another right or wrong. Then finding “truth” would be a hopeless cause.

To say what you did about the Trinity is bound to spark much debate, so I ask you, why are you stating your beliefs if you don’t wish to stand behind them? How do you determine what you believe is “truth”? I realize you are trying to tell Anna that you just as easily claim what you believe as truth. However, that makes her beliefs no less valid or true, but there is truth. The Bible is not just subject to interpretation, with it being okay for everyone to believe what they want. We need to wrestle with these issues and not accept whatever belief feels the most comfortable for us.

Anna, your point about being an easy target has been proved.

Kayla,
I have not attempted to target Anna. I have only recently become familiar with her blog through our association at the daily scribe.

When I heard her frustration in this post, I attempted to share my perspective about why people might react to the way she states her beliefs. Perhaps it was wrong for me to step in. I am not familiar with her or the regular commenters here.

The Bible is subject to interpretation. We in our limited capacity are only able to interpret as we continue to grow in our understanding and revelation of God and His Word.

I would not discourage anyone from wrestling with these issues. Good luck with proving yourself right on the non-essentials. Scholars and theologians have disagreed for centuries.

Personally, I am not interested in debate and I am sorry if I’ve stepped into a conversation where I don’t belong.

Grace and peace.

Dear Anna,

excellent post sister! if you’re too young then i have no shot lol.

….When it comes to the essentials we strongly believe in absolute truth, why is it that when it comes to the non-essentials we become postmodern? let me get the straight, we can claim the essentials to be true for everyone but not the non-essentials? Wow. It sounds like you’ve created a dichotomy in your epistemology thats bound to stir up confusion. I don’t know why i would hold to any non-essentials if i didn’t consider them to be true and worthy of standing up for. What changes between our essentials and non-essentials is the degree to which we tolerate other views, lets not re-define truth in the process.

The Church can….

A) Relativize truth when it comes to non-essentials.

or….

B) Hold strong convictions in the non-essentials respecting and tolerating other views.

Grace and Peace

Daniel

Great point, Daniel. By saying “charity in the non-essentials” I mean that I know differences of opinion can exist in the non-essentials, and even though someone else may be wrong, that does not mean they are not a true follower of Christ. This does NOT mean, however, that I don’t believe these non-essentials to be true. That’s an important distinction and I’m glad you wrote about it. “What changes between our essentials and non-essentials is the degree to which we tolerate other views” - exactly.

NIce post Daniel. Along these same lines is the fact that alot of postmoderns and Emergents are very uncomfortable coming to a conclusion about anything, especially non-essentials. We must come to conclusions at some point, even if held loosely and subject to change on further scrutiny, and the reason is that we behave and act in a fashion that is according to our beliefs. Quite a number of people today seem to think that we can live out life without really holding too strongly to anything. But the fact is, we live and walk out those things we most believe to be right, even if it is the fact that we don’t really hold to anything strongly. Does that make sense?

If we are indeterminate on things, we live an indeterminate and circuitous life. We wander and meander around, grasping at this and that. We then pat ourself on the back because we are so relevent and tolerant, yet we don’t really stand for anything firm. The hope of the gospel is that we can find direction and determination of God’s will in His Word, and we must do our best to grasp it, and realign as we go on the non-essentials.

Good post, and you’re absolutely right. It’s the same thing that people try to foist on men who have something to say about abortion– “you can’t have an opinion because you’re not a woman!”

Keep strong in the faith while making sure to show respect and you should be just fine!